Violence
From Paul Roberts :
After a fairly intense service last time about personal spiritual journeys, life of faith and so on, I think it might be blessed relief to move over to something outward-facing, preferably engaging with some issues in the public domain.
I wondered about doing something on violence, not least the fetishization of violence and its affect on gun crime and knife crime. GIven that an act of violence lies at the centre of the Christian message, what should this say to Christian responses to violence in our own lives. Leading into some kind of prayer response and activity.
posted by Richard Wheeler at 1:04 PM
26 Comments:
Paul,
This seems an excellent idea. I particularly like the fact that there is scope here for a combination of the outward-focused (violence in our lives and our society) and the theological: i.e. can violence ever be redemptive, as the Christian doctrine atonement asserts it is/was? How does this work?
I think this would be a very well received, both locally and - in particular - at Greenbelt if we were to take it there. It certainly moves us a long way from alt.worship cliches or any accusations of navel-gazing!
Tim
1:01 AM
My first attempt at commenting didn't seem to post (my html was too sophisticated for blogger), so I'm going to try again!
I really like this idea, because it helps us to develop our outward focus, particularly important wrt your recent conversation with the Archdeacon and the need for Foundation to start developing its "mission" (eurgh) focus. It could also help with accessibility - I'm usually the last person to want to be anti-intellectual, but this meets the need of a broader/different congregation (different while also being within the Foundation demographic). I'm conscious as well that the life journey issues explored in the last bigservice don't apply to everyone and it would be good to do something that applies to a different/overlapping group.
I think there are some obvious issues in relation to the kinds of images we may want to use and young foundationeers who may be present.
This service idea may well also suit a shorter format that could lead into a bbq (I understand that this is part of the story for the summer bigservice). Also, after a "heavy" service last time it would be good to have something a bit less cerebral.
I'm interested in the scope for exploring different Christian resposnes to violence. I was recently shocked to hear a Christian colleague say that he was bringing his (young) children up to know that the right thing to do when spat at is to hit them right back.
This one gets my vote!
Becky TvdG
11:09 AM
I think this is a very interesting idea. I'm not sure that it would be lighter than the last service though! Surely violence is one of the darkest issues there is?!
Would we look at different levels of violence, e.g. cultural and institutional?
The 'Christian' response could tie in with Weak Theology ideas outlined in another post.
11:30 AM
I think that it should broadly speaking have the outward focus, but I agree with Jenny that some allusion to the weak theology idea or at least to the propensity of more fundamental forms of religion to do violence to our humanity would enable some continuity from the last service as well. Clearly there is stacks we could do with the pacifist / non-violence tradition, although it begs the question of to what extent members of the community are convinced by its arguments. It also opens the door to some deeper reflection on why it is that our society is rather preoccupied with violence or increasingly resorts to violent solutions - potentially enabling us to present elements of the gospel in a way that might just have a whiff of mission about it.
1:44 PM
Becky - good point about shorter format. Naturally serviceable for BBQ. Must have a word with Steve as to whether he's willing to coordinate that...
Also like the idea of finding some continuity with the last service as Rich and Jenny mention, perhaps via the weak theology idea.
Rich - "whiff of mission" suggestion is good too, for my money.
11:19 PM
What does love's response to violence look like?
Hmmmm. I've always found that these stories give me help give me an idea:
http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/
12:05 PM
Lindsey might be prepared to be a 'consultant' to her 'friends in Foundation' for this issue! Her research is afterall about violence/peace. She's not keen on theforgivenessproject but I'm not sure if this is general grumpiness! I think her gripe with it is that its about forgiveness without justice. That theme could be a whole service in itself:
how does the concept of 'forgiveness' actually create violence against fellow Christians?!
9:17 AM
PS to illustrate this, see the Rant:
http://postrantrant.blogspot.com/2007/02/forgiveness.html
9:25 AM
What about the church as a form of violence? The unique brutality of men who *know* they're right? Could be a link there with weak theology (as the antidote).
It has been the powerful discourse of violence(cultural, structural and acute)legitimised by the church which has been central to my own deconversion.
9:38 AM
I think a structure for a BigService on violence could be:
1) Video clips of violence from popular culture (Tom and Jerry to more extreme?). The impression that violence is 'out there' and we as Christians are looking on disapprovingly.
2) Someone complains that the church is actually the cause of a lot of the violence and oppression in the world. We have a section on that.
3) We look for an alternative e.g. Weak Theology, and propose ways of being that undermine the power of violence in our society, rather than adding to it.
What do people think about this? I've just written a post on my blog about Weak Theology if anyone is interested: http://sidekicked.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/deconstructing-the-wisdom-of-the-wise-weak-theology/
7:31 AM
"But if you hurt what's mine
I'll sure as hell retaliate ..."
12:13 AM
... (There's a great video by Massive Attack we could use which opens up some of the issues.) I am also wondering about doing clips of computer games.
P.
12:17 AM
I think we need to be very careful about what clips we use - I wouldn't like to be involved in a service with a 15 certificate, if you see what I mean.
I liked the way that the previous service didn't propose a "solution" to the problem it raised.
Becky TvdG
2:10 AM
Oh and I'm a really big fan of the Forgiveness Project - I know there are problems with some of the accounts, but there is also a lot of good there.
Becky TvdG
2:11 AM
In Apocalypse Now: Reflections on Faith in a Time of Terror (2005), an interesting juxtaposition is proposed: on the one hand, the statement of support for the Kaiser published by a group of ninety-three leading German intellectuals, including theologians, on the day WWI broke out; on the other hand, the public “Letter from America: What We Are Fighting For” in support of President Bush’s “war on terror,” signed by sixty prominent American intellectuals, including theologians, five months after 9/11. The first letter awoke Karl Barth from his Schleiermacherian slumbers, the second letter aroused Stanley Hauerwas and Paul Griffiths to a polemical response. All three seem to assert that, by and large the people of Germany and the US sleepwalked into slaughter. Their moral was this: when political theology is faithful, one should expect it to be critical and subversive; when it is unfaithful, one can expect it to be ideological and fatal. How to react to violence in the world at large was also deemed by all three to be an important outworking of faith.
5:30 AM
Charity led a good foundation bible study in relation to the relationship between violence and oppression, and liberation and redemption (using some really good soundtracks). I think that it would be great to be able to reflect some ideas, like this, that have already come to light either in foundation little services (Richard led one in respect of our reaction to violence and, in particular, the Gulf War), or in foundation bible studies, as this provides a sense of inter-connection between different aspects of foundation.
Lastly, with reference to Richard T's little service and some of the group reaction from Charity's bible study, we could consider the vital connection between violence and forgiveness, and maybe, more subtlely, between forgiveness and mercy over simply the demands of justice (make reference to Measure for Measure or some such text?)
5:56 AM
"Their moral was this: when political theology is faithful, one should expect it to be critical and subversive; when it is unfaithful, one can expect it to be ideological and fatal. How to react to violence in the world at large was also deemed by all three to be an important outworking of faith."
This is a great idea. How far is a faithful response likely to subvert the established political principalities and powers? In the 30s/40s it was the "confessing church" of Barth and Bonhoeffer which opposed the Nazis, to whom the Vatican had capitulated.
As you say, there is an alarming and highly pertinent parallel with the recent "war on terror" and its ecclesiastical supporters. Once again you have a large religious establishment (this time predominantly Protestant - no one is blameless on ground of denomination!) taking a line supportive of the prevailing political agenda; and a smaller dissenting group invoking faith *against* the prevailing agenda.
This would be good to weave in, perhaps. Which is the faithful response? How far can the City of God collude in the affairs of the secular city, and where is the line drawn?
I also agree about picking up on strands identified in recent littleservices and Bible studies. The quarterly is an ideal forum for further exploring (and publically giving voice to) some recent reflections of the Foundation community taking place in our weekly and monthly meetings. Some of these, as you say, have directly or indirectly touched on the theme suggested.
6:12 AM
Can I suggest for those of us who are less versed in theology and philosophy that a 'for dummies' version of weak theology is pulled together?
3:11 PM
Marc - Jenny's separate post below is a good place to start.
For what it's worth, my and Iain's comments were not directly to do with weak theology but rather, what constitutes a faithful response to violence. (However, apologies for the heavy name-drops, which may have been rather obscuring of my own points!)
Being more direct and practical, therefore... One could look at this theme at a global/historical level - e.g. the mid-century confessing church, the war on terror, etc - and also, in parallel, at an local/individual level. In this context Paul's suggestions about Massive Attack and computer games could easily be used.
In fact, wouldn't it be good to have a service which makes the link between the global/historical and the local/individual? The idea that each of us is guilty of wanting and seeking revenge at an individual level; and that such feelings can become those of a whole nation or tribe, with terrible effects.
(Thinking of specific images: One could e.g. use the Massive Attack song as a soundtrack to a film of the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers, or IRA bombings, or such. Being always mindful of audience and not wanting to create a "15" rated service.)
How would a faithful adherence to Jesus' teaching stand over against such responses? What is a faithful response to violence? What does it mean to turn the other cheek?
As Becky said near the start of this discussion, this has the merit of striking a different (less introspective, and probably less "intellectual") note to Unknowing God, and being more obviously outward-focused. In that sense it would vary the tone, defy alt.worship cliches and be Greenbelt-friendly.
11:48 PM
Iain suggested we should focus on “forgiveness and mercy over simply the demands of justice”
It’s interesting that Iain sees forgiveness and mercy as separate to (and above) justice. Are we mistaking justice for retribution or revenge? Can’t justice be merciful – to both the victim and perpetrator?
Justice should be seen as a part of forgiveness. The process of forgiveness involves hurt, anger and justice before resolution, and many Christians ignore these important stages of processing wrongs and skip straight to the resolution stage, often with superficial results and much larger problems exacerbated by repression further down the line. In my opinion forgiveness without justice is a form of spiritual abuse.
Instead of seeing justice as simplistic restitution (as I guess a lawyer might) maybe it would be useful to explore different ideas of justice such as restorative justice and cognitive justice? What about looking at the practices of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
There is nothing simple about demands for justice!
3:57 AM
A further thought:
We haven't talked much about the cross, and how the violence of this event can, or should, be theologically interpreted. I think there is a rich source of material here too, and something which is quite topical at the moment given the Steve Chalke comments about "cosmic child abuse" - and people's response to that.
(I'm being deliberately careful not to say "the evangelical response to that", as the service could all too easily turn into evangelical-bashing: which I think we want to avoid!)
8:08 AM
Hmm, whilst this is triggering some good theological reflection, at some point this needs to become a **worship** service, rather than a multi-media lecture. The biggest challenge we face, if we go down this route, is how to engage at the level of praise and worship, whilst not so over-involving people that we traumatise the congregation!
4:02 AM
Why can't we just lure the congregation into the darkened church, beat them over the heads with clubs, rob everything fropm their bags and pockets, kick them round a bit, then invite them to join us in a reflection on our Christian response to what had just happened.
It would be interactive, which is good.
It would fill the Foundation coffers, which would be good.
I would prefer to ease off the Christianity and theology bit, and create a space instead for the workings and promptings of love in us as individuals and a worshipping body. We all know how much violence there is around, and I could do without revisiting images of IRA bombings, especially at this time of ceasefire and tentative reconciliation (itself a real-world example of love overcoming hate ... ), and wouldn't welcome a service that simply states: "The world is mad and bad, and we Christians are at a loss to explain why, but we have this God concept, and I suppose we better try to learn what to do with it."
I would rather the service was a space where we can invite people and ourselves to acknowledge the scale of the response the Gospel expects of us in local and inter/national events.
Give peas a chance.
4:16 AM
Marc - i don't pretend to be an expert on Weak Theology as I've only just started reading about it. I have written about it on my blog though - see http://sidekicked.wordpress.com/ . As Tim said, the bottom of my post on this blog (under Lizzie's) explains a bit about Weak Theology. Basically, the idea seems to be rereading the Bible wihout the supposition that God is omnipotent. This makes some things make a lot more sense, but I haven't finished reading the book I'm reading yet, so may change my mind!
There are lots of implications e.g. about creation, God's intervention in evil/violence, the cross and the Kingdom.
I'm amused by 'anonymous's' mugging suggestion! Is this Charity?!
5:07 AM
I think it's Stuart! I can detect his witty Irish lilt anywhere.
5:19 AM
Thanks for writing this.
1:05 AM
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